MODERATOR:
Back to the question about the differences on gun control. What are
they, Governor, from your point of view, between you and the Vice
President?
BUSH:
Well, I'm not for photo licensing. Let me say something about
Columbine. Listen, we've got gun laws. He says we ought to have
gun-free schools. Everybody believes that. I'm sure every state in the
union has got them. You can't carry a gun into a school. And there
ought to be a consequence when you do carry a gun into a school. But
Columbine spoke to a larger issue. It's really a matter of culture.
It's a culture that somewhere along the line we've begun to disrespect
life. Where a child can walk in and have their heart turned dark as a
result of being on the Internet and walk in and decide to take somebody
else's life? So gun laws are important, no question about it, but so is
loving children, and character education classes, and faith-based
programs being a part of after-school programs. Some desperate child
needs to have somebody put their arm around them and say, we love you.
So there's a -- this is a society that -- of ours that's got to do a
better job of teaching children right from wrong. And we can enforce
law. But there seems to be a lot of preoccupation on -- not certainly
only in this debate, but just in general on law. But there's a larger
law. Love your neighbor like you would like to be loved yourself. And
that's where our society must head if we're going to be a peaceful and
prosperous society.
GORE:
I also believe in the Golden Rule. And I agree with a lot of the other
things that the governor has said. We do have a serious problem in our
culture. Tipper and I have worked on the problem of violence in
entertainment aimed at children. She's worked on it longer than I have.
But I feel very strongly about that. And if I'm elected president, I
will do something about that. But I think that we -- I think we have to
start with better parenting. But I don't think that we can ignore the
role played by guns. I mean, the fact is that there -- even though no
state wants them, there are guns in some schools. And the reason it's so
difficult for schools to control that is because in recent years there
has been a flood of cheap handguns that are so widely available that kids
are finding ways to get ahold of them. And I think that if you look at
the situation as it exists here in the United States compared to any
other country in the world, it seems to me pretty obvious that while we
respect the rights of hunters and sportsmen, we do need some common sense
gun safety steps to stem this flood of guns that are getting into the
wrong hands.
BUSH:
Yeah, no question about that, but there also needs to be strong
enforcement of the law. Some kid who feels like -- doesn't matter where
the gun comes from, it could be a cheap gun, expensive gun. What matters
is something in this person's head says there is not going to be a
consequence. So in my state we toughen up the juvenile justice laws. We
added beds. We're tough. We believe in tough love. We say, if you get
caught carrying a gun, you're automatically detained. And that's what
needs to happen. We've got laws. If laws need to be strengthened, like
instant background checks, that's important.
MODERATOR:
New question. As I was saying. Both of you -- Governor, both of you
have talked much about Medicare and health care for seniors. What about
the more than 40 million younger Americans who do not have health
insurance right now? What would you do about that?
BUSH:
Well, I've got a plan to do something about that. It's to make health
care affordable and available this way. First, there's some who should
be buying health care who choose not to. There's some --
MODERATOR:
Some of the 40 million.
BUSH:
Some of the healthy folks, healthy young kids say I'll never get sick,
therefore I don't need health care right now. For those what I think we
need to do is to develop an investment-type vehicle that would be an
incentive for them to invest, like medical savings accounts with rollover
capacity. In other words, you say to a youngster, it will be in your
financial interest to start saving for future illness, but for the
working folks that do want to have health care that can't afford it, a
couple of things we need to do. One, we need more community health
centers. I've developed -- put out money in my budget to expand
community health centers all around the country. These are places where
people can get primary care. Secondly -- and they're good. They're very
important parts of the safety net of health care. Secondly, that you get
a $2,000 rebate from the government if you're a family of $30,000 or
less -- it scales down as you get higher -- that you can use to purchase
health care in the private markets. It will be a huge down payment for a
pretty darn good system. If you allow -- also allow -- convince states
to -- allow states to allow the mother to match some of the children's
health insurance money with it, the pool purchasing power. And to make
health care more affordable, allow business associations like the
National Federal of Independent Business or the Chamber of Commerce or
the National Restaurant Association to write association plans across
jurisdictional lines so that small businesses have got the capacity to
have national pooling to drive the cost of insurance down. I think
that's the very best way to go. It empowers people, it trusts people,
it makes -- and it's a practical way to encourage people to purchase
health care insurance.
MODERATOR:
Vice President Gore?
GORE:
It's one of my top priorities, Jim, to give every single child in the
United States affordable health care within the next four years. I would
like to see eventually in this country some form of universal health
care, but I'm not for a government-run system. In fact, I'm for
shrinking the size of government. I want a smaller and smarter
government. I have been in charge of this reinventing government
streamlining project that's reduced the size of government by more than
300,000 people in the last several years. And the budget plan that I've
put out, according to the "Los Angeles Times" again, the way these things
are typically measured as a percentage of the GDP, will bring government
spending down to the lowest level in 50 years. So I want to proceed
carefully to cover more people. But I think we should start by greatly
expanding the so-called child health insurance or CHIP program to give
health insurance to every single child in this country. I think it's
intolerable that we have so many millions of children without any health
insurance. So it's one of my top priorities. Now, I know that we have
some disagreements on this. And I'm sorry to tell you that, you know,
there is a record here. And Texas ranks 49th out of the 50 states in
health care -- in children with health care. 49th for women with health
care, and 50th for families with health care. So it is a priority for
me. I guarantee you. I'm not aware of any program -- well, I'll just
leave it at that. I think it ought to be a top priority.
MODERATOR:
Governor, did the -- are the vice president's figures correct about
Texas?
BUSH:
First of all, let me say he's not for a government-run health care
system? I thought that's exactly what he and Mrs. Clinton and them
fought for in 1993 was a government-run health care system. It was
fortunately stopped in its tracks. Secondly, we spend $4.7 billion a
year on the uninsured in the State of Texas. Our rate of uninsured, the
percentage of uninsured in Texas has gone down, while the percentage of
uninsured in America has gone up. Our CHIPS program got a late start
because our government meets only four months out of every two years, Mr.
Vice President. It may come as a shock for somebody who has been in
Washington for so long. But actually limited government can work in the
second largest state in the union. And therefore Congress passes the
bill after our session in 1997 ended, we passed an enabling legislation
in 1999. We've signed up over 110,000 children to the CHIPS program.
For comparable states our size, we're signing them up as fast as any
other state. You can quote all the numbers you want, but I'm telling you
we care about our people in Texas. We spent a lot of money to make sure
people get health care in the State of Texas, and we're doing a better
job than they are at the national level for reducing uninsured.
MODERATOR:
Is he right?
GORE:
Well, I don't know about all these percentages that he throws out, but I
do know that -- I speculate that the reason why he didn't answer your
question directly as to whether my numbers were right, the facts were
right about Texas ranking dead last in families with health insurance and
49th out of 50 for both children and women, is because those facts are
correct. And as for why it happened, I'm no expert on the Texas
procedures, but what my friends there tell me is that the governor
opposed a measure put forward by Democrats in the legislature to expand
the number of children that would be covered. And instead directed the
money toward a tax cut, a significant part of which went to wealthy
interests. He declared the need for a new tax cut for the oil companies
in Texas an emergency need, and so the money was taken away from the CHIP
program. There's -- you don't have to take my word for this. There is
now a federal judge's opinion about the current management of this
program ordering the State of Texas to do -- you should read that judge's
language about this. I believe there are 1.4 million children in Texas
who do not have health insurance. 600,000 of whom, and maybe some of
those have since gotten it, but as of a year ago 600,000 of them were
actually eligible for it but they couldn't sign up for it because of the
barriers that they had set up.
MODERATOR:
Let's let the governor respond to that. Are those numbers correct? Are
his charges correct?
BUSH:
If he's trying to allege that I'm a hard-hearted person and I don't care
about children, he's absolutely wrong. We've spent $4.7 billion a year
in the State of Texas for uninsured people. And they get health care.
Now, it's not the most efficient way to get people health care. But I
want to remind you, the number of uninsured in America during their watch
has increased. He can make any excuse he wants, but the facts are that
we're reducing the number of uninsured percentage of our population. And
as the percentage of the population is increasing nationally, somehow the
allegation that we don't care and we're going to give money for this
interest or that interest and not for children in the State of Texas is
totally absurd. Let me just tell you who the jury is. The people of
Texas. There's only been one governor ever elected to back-to-back
four-year terms, and that was me. And I was able to do so with a lot of
Democrat votes, nearly 50% of the Hispanic vote, about 27% of the
African-American vote, because people know I'm a conservative person and
a compassionate person. So he can throw all the kinds of numbers around.
I'm just telling you our state comes together to do what is right. We
come together both Republicans and Democrats.
MODERATOR:
Let me put that directly to you, Vice President Gore. The reason you
brought this up, is it -- are you suggesting that those numbers and that
record will reflect the way Governor Bush will operate in this area of
health insurance as president?
GORE:
Yes, yes. But it's not a statement about his heart. I don't claim to
know his heart. I think he's a good person. I make no allegations about
that. I believe him when he says that he has a good heart. I know
enough about your story to admire a lot of the things that you have done
as a person. But I think it's about his priorities. And let me tell you
exactly why I think that the choice he made to give a tax cut for the oil
companies and others before addressing this -- I mean, if you were the
governor of a state that was dead last in health care for families, and
all of a sudden you found yourself with the biggest surplus your state
had ever had in its history, wouldn't you want to maybe use some of it to
climb from 50th to, say, 45 or 40 or something or maybe better? I
would. Now, but here is why it's directly relevant, Jim. Because by his
own budget numbers, his proposals for spending on tax cuts for the
wealthiest of the wealthy are more than the new spending proposals that
he has made for health care and education and national defense all
combined. According to his own numbers. So it's not a question of his
heart, as far as I know. It's a question of priorities and values. See,
you know --
MODERATOR:
Let me ask --
BUSH:
First of all, that's simply not true what he just said, of course. And
secondly, I repeat to you --
MODERATOR:
What is not true, Governor?
BUSH:
That we spent -- the top 1% receive 223 as opposed to 445 billion in new
spending. The top -- let's talk about my tax plan. The top 1% will pay
one-third of all the federal income taxes. And in return, get one-fifth
of the benefits, because most of the tax reductions go to the people at
the bottom end of the economic ladder. That stands in stark contrast, by
the way, to a man who is going to leave 50 million -- 50 million
Americans out of tax relief. We just have a different point of view.
It's a totally different point of view. He believes only the right
people ought to get tax relief. I believe everybody who pays taxes ought
to get tax relief. Let me go back to Texas, for example, for a minute.
We pay 4.7 billion. I can't emphasize to you how much. I signed a bill
that puts CHIPS in place. The bill finally came out at the end of the
1999 session. We're working hard to sign up children. We're doing it
faster than any other state our size, comparable state. We're making
really good progress. And our state cares a lot about our children. My
priority is going to be the health of our citizens. These folks have had
eight years to get something done in Washington, D.C. on the uninsured.
They have not done it. They've had eight years to get something done on
Medicare. And they have not got it done. And my case to the American
people is, if you're happy with inactivity, stay with the horse. The
horse is up there now. But if you want change, you need to get somebody
that knows how to bring Republicans and Democrats together to get
positive things done for American.
MODERATOR:
New question, new subject. Vice President Gore, on the environment. In
your 1992 book you said, quote, "We must make the rescue of our
environment the central organizing principle for civilization and there
must be a wrenching transformation to save the planet." Do you still
feel that way?
GORE:
I do. I think that in this 21st century we will soon see the
consequences of what's called global warming. There was a study just a
few weeks ago suggesting that in summertime the north polar ice cap will
be completely gone in 50 years. Already people see the strange weather
conditions that the old timers say they've never seen before in their
lifetimes. And what's happening is the level of pollution is increasing
significantly. Now, here is the good news, Jim. If we take the
leadership role and build the new technologies, like the new kinds of
cars and trucks that Detroit is itching to build, then we can create
millions of good new jobs by being first into the market with these new
kinds of cars and trucks and other kinds of technologies. You know the
Japanese are breathing down our necks on this. They're moving very
rapidly because they know that it is a fast-growing world market. Some
of these other countries, particularly in the developing world, their
pollution is much worse than anywhere else and their people want higher
standards of living. And so they're looking for ways to satisfy their
desire for a better life and still reduce pollution at the same time. I
think that holding onto the old ways and the old argument that the
environment and the economy are in conflict is really outdated. We have
to be bold. We have to provide leadership. Now it's true that we
disagree on this. The governor said that he doesn't think this problem
is necessarily caused by people. He's for letting the oil companies into
the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Houston has just become the
smoggiest city in the country. And Texas is number one in industrial
pollution. We have a very different outlook. And I'll tell you this, I
will fight for a clean environment in ways that strengthen our economy.
MODERATOR:
Governor?
BUSH:
Well, let me start with Texas. We are a big industrial state. We
reduced our industrial waste by 11%. We cleaned up more brown fields
than any other administration in my state's history, 450 of them. Our
water is cleaner now.
MODERATOR:
Explain what a brown field is to those who don't follow this.
BUSH:
A brown field is an abandoned industrial site that just sits idle in some
of our urban centers. And people are willing to invest capital in the
brown fields don't want to do so for fear of lawsuit. I think we ought
to have federal liability protection, depending upon whether or not
standards have been met. The book you mentioned that Vice President Gore
wrote, he also called for taxing -- big energy taxes in order to clean up
the environment. And now that the energy prices are high, I guess he's
not advocating those big energy taxes right now. I believe we ought to
fully fund the Land and Water Conservation Fund to -- with half the money
going to states so states can make the right decisions for environmental
quality. I think we need to have clean coal technologies. I propose $2
billion worth. By the way, I just found out the other day an interesting
fact, that there is a national petroleum reserve right next to -- in
Prudhoe Bay that your administration opened up for exploration in that
pristine area. And it was a smart move because there's gas reserves up
there. We need gas pipelines to bring the gas down. Gas is a clean fuel
that we can burn to -- we need to make sure that if we decontrol our
plants that there's mandatory -- that the plants must conform to clean
air standards, the grandfathered plants, that's what we did in Texas. No
excuses. You must conform. In other words, there are practical things
we can do. But it starts with working in a collaborative effort with
states and local folks. If you own the land, every day is Earth Day.
People care a lot about their land and care about their environment. Not
all wisdom is in Washington, D.C. on this issue.
MODERATOR:
Where do you see the basic difference in very simple terms in two or
three sentences between you and the governor on the environment? If a
voter wants to make a choice, what is it?
GORE:
I'm really strongly committed to clean water and clean air, and cleaning
up the new kinds of challenges like global warming. He is right that I'm
not in favor of energy taxes. I am in favor of tax cuts to encourage and
give incentives for the quicker development of these new kinds of
technologies. And let me say again, Detroit is rearing to go on that.
We differ on the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, as I have said. We
differ on whether or not pollution controls ought to be voluntary. I
don't think you can -- I don't think you can get results that way. We
differ on the kinds of appointments that we would make.
MODERATOR:
Would you say it's a fundamental difference?
GORE:
I think it's a fundamental difference. Let me give you an example.
MODERATOR:
Hold on one second.
GORE:
Okay, sure.
MODERATOR:
We've talked about supply. I just want to know for somebody -- we're
getting close to the end of our time here. If somebody wanted to vote on
the environment, how would you draw the differences, Governor?
BUSH:
Well, I don't believe in command and control out of Washington, D.C. I
believe Washington ought to set standards, but again I think we ought to
be collaborative at the local levels and I think we ought to work with
people at the local levels. And by the way, I just want to make sure --
I can't let him just say something and not correct it. The electric
decontrol bill that I fought for and signed in Texas has mandatory
emission standards, Mr. Vice President. That's what we ought to do at
the federal level when it comes to grandfathered plants for utilities. I
think there's a difference. I think, for example, take -- when they took
40 million acres of land out of circulation without consulting local
officials, I thought that was --
MODERATOR:
That was out in the west?
BUSH:
Out in the west, yeah. And so -- on the logging issue. That's not the
way I would have done it. Perhaps some of that land needs to be set
aside. But I certainly would have consulted with governors and elected
officials before I would have acted unilaterally.
MODERATOR:
Would you believe the federal government still has some new rules and
new regulations and new laws to pass in the environmental area or do you
think --
BUSH:
Sure, absolutely, so long as they're based upon science and they're
reasonable. So long as people have input.
MODERATOR:
What about global warming?
BUSH:
I think it's an issue that we need to take very seriously. But I don't
think we know the solution to global warming yet. And I don't think
we've got all the facts before we make decisions. I tell you one thing
I'm not going to do is I'm not going to let the United States carry the
burden for cleaning up the world's air. Like Kyoto Treaty would have
done. China and India were exempted from that treaty. I think we need
to be more even-handed, as evidently 99 senators -- I think it was 99
senators supported that position.
MODERATOR:
Global warming, the Senate did turn it down. I think --
BUSH:
99 to nothing.
GORE:
Well, that vote wasn't exactly -- a lot of the supporters of the Kyoto
Treaty actually ended up voting for that because the way it was worded.
But there's no doubt there's a lot of opposition to it in the Senate.
I'm not for command and control techniques either. I'm for working with
the groups, not just with industry but also with the citizen groups and
local communities to control sprawl in ways that the local communities
themselves come up with. But I disagree that we don't know the cause of
global warming. I think that we do. It's pollution, carbon dioxide, and
other chemicals that are even more potent, but in smaller quantities,
that cause this. Look, the world's temperature is going up, weather
patterns are changing, storms are getting more violent and unpredictable.
What are we going to tell our children? I'm a grandfather now. I want
to be able to tell my grandson when I'm in my later years that I didn't
turn away from the evidence that showed that we were doing some serious
harm. In my faith tradition, it is -- it's written in the book of
Matthew, "Where your heart is, there is your treasure also." And I
believe that -- that we ought to recognize the value to our children and
grandchildren of taking steps that preserve the environment in a way
that's good for them.
BUSH:
Yeah, I agree. I just -- I think there has been -- some of the
scientists, I believe, Mr. Vice President, haven't they been changing
their opinion a little bit on global warming? A profound scientist
recently made a different --
MODERATOR:
Both of you have now violated -- excuse me. Both of you have now
violated your own rules. Hold that thought.
GORE:
I've been trying so hard not to.
MODERATOR:
I know, I know. But under your alls rules you are not allowed to ask
each other a question. I let you do it a moment ago.
BUSH:
Twice.
MODERATOR:
Now you just -- twice, sorry. (LAUGHTER)
GORE:
That's an interruption, by the way.
MODERATOR:
That's an interruption, okay. But anyhow, you just did it so now --
BUSH:
I'm sorry. I apologize, Mr. Vice President.
MODERATOR:
You aren't allowed to do that either, see? (LAUGHTER) I'm sorry, go
ahead and finish your thought. People care about these things I've found
out.
BUSH:
Of course they care about them. Oh, you mean the rules.
MODERATOR:
Yeah, right, exactly right. Go ahead.
BUSH:
What the heck. I -- of course there's a lot -- look, global warming
needs to be taken very seriously, and I take it seriously. But science,
there's a lot -- there's differing opinions. And before we react, I
think it's best to have the full accounting, full understanding of what's
taking place. And I think to answer your question, I think both of us
care a lot about the environment. We may have different approaches. We
may have different approaches in terms of how we deal with local folks.
I just cited an example of the administration just unilaterally acting
without any input. And I remember you gave a very good answer to New
Hampshire about the White Mountains, about how it was important to keep
that collaborative effort in place. I feel very strongly the same place.
It certainly wasn't the attitude that took place out west, however.
MODERATOR:
New question. Last question. For you, Governor. And this flows
somewhat out of the Boston debate. You, your running mate, your campaign
officials have charged that Vice President Gore exaggerates, embellishes
and stretches the facts, etcetera. Are you -- do you believe these are
serious issues? This is a serious issue that the voters should use in
deciding which one of you two men to vote for on November 7?
BUSH:
Well, we all make mistakes. I've been known to mangle a syllable or two
myself, you know, if you know what I mean. I think credibility is
important. It is going to be important for the president to be credible
with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign
nations. And yes, I think it's something that people need to consider.
This isn't something new. I read a report, or a memo, from somebody in
his 1988 campaign -- I forgot the fellow's name -- warning then Senator
Gore to be careful about exaggerating claims. I thought during his
debate with Senator Bradley saying he authored the EITC when it didn't
happen. I mention the last debate --
MODERATOR:
EITC?
BUSH:
The Earned Income Tax Credit, sorry.
MODERATOR:
That's all right.
BUSH:
A lot of initials from a guy who's not from Washington, isn't it?
Anyway, he co-sponsored McCain-Feingold, and yet he didn't. And so I
think this is an issue. I found it to be an issue in trying to defend my
tax relief package. I thought there was some exaggerations about the
numbers. But the people are going to have to make up their mind on this
issue. And I am going to continue to defend my record and defend my
propositions against what I think are exaggerations. Exaggerations like,
for example, only 5% of seniors receive benefits under my Medicare reform
package. That's what he said the other day, and that's simply not the
case. And I have every right in the world to defend my record and
positions. That's what debates are about and that's what campaigns are
about.
MODERATOR:
Vice President Gore?
GORE:
I got some of the details wrong last week in some of the examples that I
used, Jim, and I'm sorry about that. And I'm going to try to do better.
One of the reasons I regret it is that getting a detail wrong interfered
several times with the point that I was trying to make. However many
days that young girl in Florida stood in her classroom, however long,
even if it was only one day, doesn't change the fact that there are a lot
of overcrowded classrooms in America and we need to do something about
that. There are seniors who pay more for their prescriptions than a lot
of other people, more than their pets, sometimes. More sometimes than
people in foreign countries. And we need to do something about that.
Not with the measure that leaves the majority of them without any real
basic help until the next president's term of four years is over. But
right away. And that means doing it under the Medicare program. I can't
promise that I will never get another detail wrong. I can promise you
that I will try not to, and hard. But I will promise you this with all
the confidence in my heart and in the world, that I will do my best if
I'm elected president, I'll work my heart out to get the big things right
for the American people.
MODERATOR:
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